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KinsellaLaw Web Log
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Friday, February 25, 2005
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Thursday, February 24, 2005
Re: "Doctor" Lawyer?:
Some email from an old post about lawyers using the title "doctor":
-----Original Message-----
From: Stephan Kinsella [mailto:Stephan@KinsellaLaw.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 11:20 AM
To: 'David Janson'
Subject: RE: Sorry-JD
Importance: High
Thanks for your comments.
Some of your points are good ones; some of my arguments are kind of silly, like the "doctor doctor" one. However, your extended argument is futile; it's like trying to argue a word "should" have a certain defintion; but it does not work this way; words DO have certain meanings by common usage and convention. Likewise, no matter what you say, it is just "not done" to call a lawyer a doctor. If any lawyer calls himself a doctor he is just an insecure, pretentious weirdo, in my view. PhD's can barely get away with it; medical doctors are the common usage. But JD--no way.
I agree w/ you that many PhD's now are a joke, but that is a sign of the times. Just b/c you can get a PhD in stupid things now does not mean that law ought to just be folded into the word.
It's just not gonna happen.
" The Supreme Court of Texas has said a lawyer can use the title "Doctor""
Where is this? I would be curious to see it.
" You say you consider it vain and even embarrassing for a lawyer to use the term "Doctor". You have your opinion,"
Correct. It's my view. It still is.
" and thats great, but
I on the other hand DO THINK the profession needs the recoginition it deserves."
Oh, I don't. Lawyers are by and large pretentious assholes, don't you agree?
" I am sure you have noticed all the garbage which is said about lawyers being unethical, and that they are liars who only want money."
That is true for some of them; but I don't think it's really the main problem. the main problem is they are greedy, selfish, workaholic bullies. Lots of them, anyway.
" I dont know about you, but I do not like the jokes and the stereotypes."
Honestly, I don't really care. I have thick skin. Being a libertarian makes you develop one!
"This profession was a noble one, and people like you help to take that away."
This is unfair. I'm a good attorney--a competent and honest and decent and nice one. Just because I *recognize* the current disrepute into which laywers *have fallen*--due to the actions of the slimes and jerks--does not mean it's my fault. You are blaming the messenger.
" The jokes and stereotypes are usually by ignorant people who dont know anything about the profession or how the legal system works, the difficulties a lawyer faces, and the ethics involved. Lawyers in fact need to be pretty strict in their ethics or they can easily be disbarred due to the strict ethical rules they must follow."
Yes, I do agree with this. I often tell people lawyers are much more ethical than they realize; and also, much of the bad rap lawyers get is because clients are pigheaded and insiste on suing etc., even when the lawyer tries to talk them out of it. I do not disagree with you at all. But I think there is nothing wrong with jokes and stereotypes; this is natural and normal human behavior.
" I am not saying lawyers should be able to be called
doctor just because the profession needs the respect;
I am saying they can be called doctors because they do
have doctorates,"
Law degrees say "Juris doctor", not "juris doctorate", I believe. I don't think they are doctorates. A long time ago it was an LL.B. Just because the decided to change the NAME of the degree does not all of a sudden make it a doctorate. That's my view. Anywya, it does not matter. Any lawyer who calls himself "Doctor" sounds like a pretentious fop. Do you not agree with it?
" and collaterally, the profession
certainly could use the bolster in respect which MAY
come from it. "
I really do not know why people say this. What do you mean the profession "needs" a bostering of respect...? Why? Do we need more money? or what? What exactly are you saying? I am serious, I am not being combative. I don't know what you mean. Are you saying lawyers are miserable because of this... that we don't attract enough potential law students? That we have a shortage of lawyers? What?
" A JD is a degree which is conferred after a B.A.
Yes, a BA in anything, but as noted, one can obtain
doctorates in many fields without undergraduate
training in the same field. Maybe you are not proud
of the school you went to and/or the education you
received. Unlike you, I am, and I dont consider it to
be vain or embarrassing. Just as any other person who
has a doctorate is not considered vain when he uses
the term "doctor", neither should a lawyer. "
I'm proud of it, sure. But I realize I had a lot of idiots as fellow calssmates. What do you call someoen who graduates at the bottom of his class in law school? A: a lawyer.
I know that my degree in EE was mcuh more difficult. You have to be pretty sharp to get that. Law is not that special. Lawyers want to be seen as special.
" A JD is not obtained more easily than a PH.D., or
more easily than most other doctorates for that
matter. Not that a JD is terribly hard to get, but
neither are many doctorates."
You could be right... but I think it's easy to just put your 3 years in and get a JD. A PhD is different. but they are being diluted now, I agree.
" As far as lawyers "vain
attempt" to garner recognition, as a lawyer, you
should support such efforts, and recognize the
advanced education of a J.D."
Why? Seriously, why should we support efforts to gain recognition? What is the reason yo usay this, what is the purpose of it? Why is there a glaring need? PLease explian to me where you are coming from.
" If not, do us all a
favor and pursue something else. (Talk about vain! YOU
have a picture of yourself on your site which one can
click on for it to be greatly enlarged! Thats
funny!!!) "
come on, don't get silly or personal. Why would I do you afavor and pursue something else? I'm a good attorney ,an excellent one. Why would I muzzle myself and keep my opinions to myself? FUrther, it's not vain to have my PR pic up there, I write a lot and often publishers want to see a high-res portrait, so it's available. It's not vain at all. I am not good looking enough to be vain!
Best, Stephan
-----Original Message-----
From: David Janson [mailto:davidj512@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2005 11:00 AM
To: stephan@kinsellalaw.com
Subject: Sorry-JD
A J.D. is defined as being a professional doctoral degree/doctorate, similar to a M.D. Just as Medical Doctors can use the term Doctor, therefore, a lawyer who has been conferred a JD can also use such a title.
You ask if a person who has a JD and subsequently
obtains a SJD is a "Doctor Doctor". Umm, NO, he is
still addressed as "Doctor", just as a person with a
JD and and MD or a person with two Ph.D.s is still
called "Doctor". You obviously dont call a person
with two Doctorates, whether they are Ph.D.s or
whatever, "Doctor Doctor". I submit, therefore, that
your question on that matter is a silly one.
You also indicate that since a lawyer can have an
undergrad degree in anything, he should not be able
to indicate that he has a doctorate (as if to say
other doctorates necessitate undergrad training in a
discipline related to the doctoral discipline). Here
too, you are ignorant. As a former academic advisor,
I can assure you there are many fields one can pursue
and obtain a doctorate in (and use the title "Doctor") regardless of his undergrad degree; business is one of them. One need not have a BBA to obtain either an MBA or to go directly into a DBA or Ph.D. program in business.
In addition, hours required toward the JD and Ph.D.
and other doctorates are similar. As you know, JDs
take 15 or so hrs a semester, while other grad
students consider 9 hrs full time study. As for the
doctoral dissertation, many doctoral programs do not
require one, such as the DBA (Doctor of Business
Administration) for one.
The Supreme Court of Texas has said a lawyer can use
the title "Doctor". You say you consider it vain and
even embarrassing for a lawyer to use the term
"Doctor". You have your opinion, and thats great, but
I on the other hand DO THINK the profession needs the recoginition it deserves. I am sure you have noticed all the garbage which is said about lawyers being unethical, and that they are liars who only want money. I dont know about you, but I do not like the jokes and the stereotypes. This profession was a noble one, and people like you help to take that away. The jokes and stereotypes are usually by ignorant people who dont know anything about the profession or how the legal system works, the difficulties a lawyer faces, and the ethics involved. Lawyers in fact need to be pretty strict in their ethics or they can easily be disbarred due to the strict ethical rules they must follow.
I am not saying lawyers should be able to be called
doctor just because the profession needs the respect;
I am saying they can be called doctors because they do
have doctorates, and collaterally, the profession
certainly could use the bolster in respect which MAY
come from it.
A JD is a degree which is conferred after a B.A.
Yes, a BA in anything, but as noted, one can obtain
doctorates in many fields without undergraduate
training in the same field. Maybe you are not proud
of the school you went to and/or the education you
received. Unlike you, I am, and I dont consider it to
be vain or embarrassing. Just as any other person who
has a doctorate is not considered vain when he uses
the term "doctor", neither should a lawyer.
A JD is not obtained more easily than a PH.D., or
more easily than most other doctorates for that
matter. Not that a JD is terribly hard to get, but
neither are many doctorates. As far as lawyers "vain
attempt" to garner recognition, as a lawyer, you
should support such efforts, and recognize the
advanced education of a J.D. If not, do us all a
favor and pursue something else. (Talk about vain! YOU
have a picture of yourself on your site which one can
click on for it to be greatly enlarged! Thats
funny!!!)
Perhaps youll consider putting this on your site to
show both sides.
Respectfully and Sincerely,
David Jansen, J.D.
Friday, February 18, 2005
Trademark Scams:
I received this official-looking $1450 "invoice" the other day. I have a European trademark registration pending so at first glance thought I owed this. But looking further, it's just some stupid scam. Amazing. I bet lots of legal departments just pay it.
Sunday, February 06, 2005
DEFEND HOPPE AND ACADEMIC FREEDOM!:
And fight the PC police--
ALERT: HOPPE UNDER ATTACK BY PC POLICE Professor Hans-Hermann Hoppe is under attack by the PC police. As suggested by David Beito, all scholars and academics in favor of academic freedom, and all lovers of liberty and Hoppe's supporters are urged to follow Beito's suggestions to help support Hoppe and the cause of academic freedom. Contact info for people to email/fax (here).
In addition to Beito's suggestions, publicity from the likes of Ann Coulter, David Horowitz, O'Reilly, Hannity & Colmes, Rush Limbaugh, Drudge can only help. Write them too...
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